Dealing with savage leaders

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Permalink Reply by Peace_maker on January 6, 2009 at 8:17pm

I feel its bad its saddens me to see such stuff go on here when you thought most of the world is a civilized place
Israel will not give land and they will fight for that over all and just allow Jewish settlers coming in to give land to them..so little so much to fight for to be killed and just only have rockets to fight with for they have more to kill with
being a Israeli government

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Permalink Reply by Peace_maker on January 6, 2009 at 8:00pm

Well to say all my Palestinian friend saif all they just want is a little piece of land .. it is the whole issue there so much to fight for right"1 " or does it go further then that what your saying on here

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Permalink Reply by Peace_maker on January 6, 2009 at 8:09pm

Donna all U.S.A. wants is to have Israel have the say over on t his All I was told by a Palestinian friend all they want is just a little piece of land ... and this is what the whole issue is... the Biggest thing is there excuse for doing this they are trying to protect there people. from being non existing and not have a Israeli state. but it is all right to give land to Jewish settlers in herbon.. where does all the excuses go" I know Hatred is the fire that fuels
no peace...

May be I am wrong in what I said but give me ur opinion what he said is total wash

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Permalink Reply by Vincent Mespoulet on January 7, 2009 at 11:43am

Dear David,

I'm sorry, but your vision of the History is not correct, but no matter with that, it's YOUR problem to disseminate your opinion :)

Most important, about what you wrote here:
- savage leaders , leaders who are fundamentally savage, Medieval values, Middle East thinking is not Western thinking, when i read your value judgement, i remember all the texts and speeches of our french colonial leaders between 1880 and 1945 to JUSTIFY what is unjustifiable... You speak about Arabs exactly like colonialists spoke about Africans... really, it's funny... and also pathetic...

- now about the notion of useful idiots: the expression is older, and comes from Karl Marx and Engels themselves; not the Soviets... here you use a very classic rhetoric against pacifists who support Palestine... i heard it hundreds time, every time i had to write or produce a critical analysis of Israel policy... And it's the same tame thing about my french or israeli friends if they are Jews and protest against the massive israeli attack on Gaza: of course, for people like you, my friends are self-hatred jews or even traitors...

We know by heart your rhetoric, David... it's so sad to read here the same old words and arguments to legitimate war crimes by israel gov., today in Gazan and tomorrow in Israel territory itself... Because be sure that the third intifada will be taken place in Israel... Many anti-Arab people like you there, dreaming to eliminate all this Israeli Arabs citizens with Medieval Values ... You have just a very old and classic colonialist opinion, David; no interest for me...

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Permalink Reply by David Sternlight on January 7, 2009 at 8:15pm

1. "Useful idiots" is one of Lenin's, not Engels or Marx. "Edvard Radzinsky offers a similar quotation on p. 209 of his Stalin. He attributes it to the artist Yuri Annenkov, who claims to have seen some of Lenin's papers while working at the Lenin Institute, before his emigration to the West in 1924, the same year Lenin died.[2] Annenkov's reproduction from memory was published in "Vospominaniya o Lenine" Novyi Zhurnal n.65 (New York,1961). Radzinsky conjectures that this is part of a full text of Lenin's Testament, which Lenin deliberately concealed, sending only a partial text to the Party Secretariat."(Wiikipedia)

2. The attempts of the PLO to overthrow the governments of Arab states that offered them hospitality is a historical fact; no amount of rationalization can hand-wave that away. The point is that their belligerence is a matter of character having little to do with the Israelis. One must take account of this character in any attempt to arrange a peaceful, secure situation.

3. Your prejudices are showing. My comments were about specific modern inter-Arab politics. Again they are a matter of historical fact and are part of recent history, not some long-forgotten conflict. This again suggests medieval (as a historical reference to the thinking of the best and the brightest of a particular time period, not as name-calling) thinking, not post renaissance thinking. This line of analysis is not unique to me but has been well-distinguished by international relations professors in explaining Soviet behavior in the past. I simply draw similar lessons from the evidence of inter-Arab behavior. Again, it is not name-calling but historical reference to patterns of behavior considered "normal" or even 'enlightened" during medieval times. One must understand this in order to be effective in any negotiations. It's no use assuming an appeal to Western values will work with those who do not share them.

Nothing I have said has anything to do with the Israelis except as they have to interact with Arab values and behavior; it's all about the well-documented results of Arab studies specialists. Peace activists need to understand the "language" of the Arab mind in order to have any chance of making progress. Western warm and fuzzy simply will not cut it. Neither the Israeli leaders nor the Palestinian Arab leaders should be confused with Mahatma Gandhi.

I'll give another example. Westerners are outraged by Arab lies, because lying is a sin in Western culture. In Islamic culture, in contrast, there is the value called "al takiyya": that it is not only no sin but also permissible to lie in order to advance Islam. Peace activists need to understand this in order to have a meaningful and realistic discussion with those who practice al takiyya. One of the most notorious examples of this is Hanan Ashrawi, who blatantly and knowingly lies to advance her agenda almost every time she addresses a Western audience. Yet she is a sophisticated and educated woman, not an ignoramus. In her most recent pronouncements she makes egregious claims that have been refuted by UN observers on the scene, local residents of Gaza, and reports from Gaza hospital professionals charged with keeping statistics, both about the ratio of non-combatant civilian casualties and about the humanitarian situation. This is but the latest example of a long history. One needs to understand this, since she is often involved in any discussions seeking a modus vivendi.

I say all this in the interests of knowing one's interlocutors in order to have productive discussions, not as name-calling. Please do not be defensive when facts are at issue.

Deeds, not words are how we determine intentions in the Middle East.

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Permalink Reply by Roro Faraj on January 10, 2009 at 10:34pm

Hmmm, deeds not words, let's see the Israeli government begin with humain deeds toward the Palestinian people rather than treating them like animals.

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Permalink Reply by Roro Faraj on January 10, 2009 at 10:37pm

Amen to that, David. Mr. Sternlight is obviously a brilliant man who is simply closed minded about his perception of all Arabs.

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Permalink Reply by Hiba on January 7, 2009 at 8:57pm

Let us see what achievement the western world and governments have done, besides the fact that you failed to mention the reason that the United Nation was created for and which was after the world war II to impose some civilian and fuzzy friendly environment between the governments of the so called nowadays the modern developed world (those countries who went into a crazy not only one but two WW’s), adding to this the really long mandate over the Arab world by the fuzzy friendly governments of mainly Britain, France, and Italy to get some extraordinary privileges, benefits, and control, moreover and before that the mandate over the Arab world the let us not forget the continuous intervention in the inner issues of the Ottman Government and the crazy race by those fuzzy and friendly governments in getting privileges inside the Ottman emperor.

The achievements became even more interesting, since USA has joined the race and probably started to talk by the tongue of the Neutral fuzzy friendly Europe, starting by the gulf war in Iraq and we all know how much oil Iraq has, passing by Afghanistan then again by Iraq, also not forgetting about some threatening messages to Iran and Syria regarding to their policies and nuclear industry by Iran, and some boycotts to complete the scenario as what happened with Iraq and Libya for a period of time, all that while the continuous construction of military basis in the gulf and signing treaties under the tables with other Arab governments whom their leaders are called savage.

I am wondering from where our leaders have learned to be such savage idiot leaders?

Arabs are not savage some of their policies are.

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Permalink Reply by David Sternlight on January 7, 2009 at 10:48pm

This isn't about A being superior to B; it's about knowing the culture and values of those one is dealing with. It's not sbout ideology, but about practices and context; self-image; and accepted rules of behavior in various cultures. Compare the Russians shooting down KAL007 for violating its territory with most Western countries scrambling fighters to escort a plane to either the nearest air base or the border--a clear distinction between medieval thinking about territoriality and post-renaissance thinking about cooperation.

As the anthropologist Ruth Benedict reports in "Patterns of Culture" the Dobu are a warlike people with little tolerance for other tribes, while the Kwakiutl are a more gentle people who gained status by giving away goods to their neighbors in big parties called Potlatches. Better know that if you're going to deal with either,

He who cannot learn from history is doomed to repeat it.

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Permalink Reply by Hiba on January 7, 2009 at 11:08pm

I am not trying to make a comparison more than trying to show you that it is not western who has the good things and Arabs who are savage, mankind history includes much more than that to make a conclusion of unless Arabs adopt western way of thinking and living then they are savage, undermining our culture is unfair.

I don’t mind repeating it, it is not Arabs but some of their policies and ideologies, and going through the history will show us that no one is perfect and no government is just a completely fuzzy friendly one.

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Permalink Reply by Roro Faraj on January 10, 2009 at 10:42pm

AND, you would say that the Jewish people of Israel are gentle people?????? I hate saying this because I KNOW there are many Israelis who despise the current massacreof GAZA but, your arrogant, colonialistic words imply so many insults to Arabs and Palestinian alike.
So, tell me, Mr. Sternlight, what do you think is the solution for a balanced, peaceful Israel-Palestine?
I would love to know what you would do if you had to power to do it? I can't wait for your reply.

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Permalink Reply by Hiba on January 7, 2009 at 9:16pm

The attempts of the PLO to overthrow the governments of Arab states that offered them hospitality so we agree on something and which is the establishment of Israel on their lands and being unfairly kicked out to other countries that had to offer them hospitality.

Now those Fuzzy Friendly governments know how to make things right, and which is by declaring a Palestine as they have declaired Israel once.

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