Arab reaction

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Comment by Yigal D. Kahana on February 5, 2009 at 6:30am

Corey,

My viewpoint of the blog above is that you are unrealistically generalizing about Arabs!
I've found a great variability, and spectrum of opinions among Arabs.
At least, among those who have not bought into the Wahhabi model and PR machine...

And let's not forget the natural sort of support that members of every healthy group give each other,
sort of as a reflex?

I do get your point.
It was kind of like everyone asks about the same questions, criticizing Israel basically.
But when you respond thoughtfully and to the point, everyone responds in their own unique way.

Comment by Corey Gil-Shuster on February 2, 2009 at 11:15pm

Sweety, dialoging is a messy thing! There is an impression that if you can just get the two sides into the same room, they will understand each other and solutions will be found. The truth is that each person comes with their own baggage, their own worldview, their own definitions for the same words and concepts. The clash of these ideas, backgrounds, viewpoints are rarely even noticed by those who take part. The two parties generally leave the room feeling they are right, the other is wrong and there is no one to talk to.

I don't want to paint such a negative picture. I have seen some very good mediators point out these dynamics in ways that could be understood. But it isn't as easy as it seems. See you wednesday!

Comment by Natalie Dupuis on February 2, 2009 at 10:46pm

Wow, Corey. You are SO ECS. Good stuff, though. I often wish a lot of people in so many parts of the world could see the shades of grey I've been shown.

We should talk about dialogue someday. I've been doing some reading in the area and have concluded that it's far more complicated than most people let on.

Comment by Basil Keilani on January 30, 2009 at 6:09pm

Corey, you mentioned that many Israelis feel a sense of powerlessness, but we cannot escape the reality that regardless of Israeli perceptions, the ones with the F-16s, DIME bombs and what have you are the Israelis, not the Palestinians. I can understand that Israelis feel threatend based on their past from Europe, but, in my humble opinion, Israeli Jews are actually endangering the Jews of Israel by trying to hold on to the West Bank and Gaza and angering Arab Israelis. I mean, as I said before, impoverishing our people and occupying us leads us to being more religious in many cases and to have more children. It's expected, I think. Then, you may get the scenario where the temporarily victorious Jews then have to confront a future conflict where there are more Palestinians all over the world due to the poverty of the camps abroad in Israel proper, the West Bank, and then Israel ends up with a Lebanon type situation, and maybe learning what the Lebanese Catholics learned after losing so many Christians in battle in Lebanon and deciding they had better share power.

When I stated that many Israelis exaggerated the rockets, I made that point to counter what you said from an intellectual point of view about Arabs exaggerating. I was saying Israelis do exaggerate, and they also underplay the suffering of the Arabs. I am sure to some extent, though, the death toll is much, much, much lower on the Israeli
side, Arabs downplay Israeli casualties which is not helpful in dialogue.

You said that it is hard to have dialogue with Palestinians who are using words like apartheid and are focused on their victimhood, but aren't many Jews also focused on their victimhood, and Palestinians are victims all the time of this occupation. I don't use the word apartheid, but I personally do believe that what exists is similar to apartheid, though I don't use that particular word. It is associated with South Africa, and it doesn't necessarily solve anything to use that term, but would I blame Palestinians in Palestine using that term when that's what they live with every day with the check points and settlements? I don't know what to really say about that. I mean the peace negotiations didn't break down because one side used the word apartheid and the other one used nice words. Many Palestinians don't focus on words such as apartheid. But, remember, it is also non-Arabs who use that term. As you stated, many Jews use emotional terms such as anti-Semite and also many Jews even in Israel use the term Nazi a lot.
I think both do that a lot, but you might be used to your own variety of it to where you don't really hear it, perhaps.
What do you think?

How productive is dialogue really to ending the occupation, Corey? I am sure it helps on some level, but what exactly could we do in the face of the politicians out there?

As far as tossing the Jews in the sea and what have you, most Palestinians state clearly that they distinguish between being Jewish and Zionism. Of course, that's not a consolation, but even if Arabs were victorious in some war, I do believe despite what happened to the Palestinians most Jews would be unharmed with definite exceptions. It's unavoidable. The ones being thrown, my friend, are not Jews, but us Palestinians. I understand your fear, but in reality we are being thrown out. I technically could not live in my father's city, because he made the mistake of studying in America in 1967. He was punished for being outside during the war. Hamas has anti-Jewish statements in its charter in contrast to that of the PLO. There has been talk of changing that charter, and many Palestinians do speak about the past when they co-existd with the Jews in the Ottoman Empire and before.
Jews and Muslims used to be major allies for centuries. It is mainly after the creation of Israel that religious verses were looked for in a major way to psychologically confront the emergence of Israel.

I long ago recognized the State of Israel, but what about recognition of legitimate Palestinian demands?
It goes both ways. We can barely think of throwing Jews in the sea or on the moon or on top of a rock, the people are fighting for their own existence, in reality. Some may express such things, because hatred has grown over the years.
I recognize Israel as a Jewish state, but I prefer a bi-national democratic, secular state. At any rate, the two state solution is basically dying very fast. Perhaps, the Israeli Government is hoping to expand the settlements more and whatever they don't want to take because there are many Arabs there, they hope Jordan will take. I feel that's the strategy from what many Jews say. They want Jordan to annex whatever they don't want i.e the left overs.
What can be done to save the Palestinians, because the key to Jewish salvation is through the salvation of the Palestinians. We want security, you want security. Israeli Jews have this fear of one day being tossed, and Palestinians have the fear of having their homes demolished and kicked out and pushed out. What the Israeli Jews fear, in a way, they are doing to the Palestinians. The Palestinians and Arabs are not capable of the kind of force to ethnic cleanse Jews in Israel as what is being done to Palestinians now. That could change in the future, and that's one reason I want peace. I don't want people of my ethnicity doing that after I am dead and buried or now or done from the other side. It is pointless.

As far as the refugees, many of them can move to the West Bank, a certain percentage could come to Israel proper where Arabs already live, the rest could move to the West, and they should receive compensation wherever the rest go if they go to areas outside of historical Palestine. It is not like the PLO wasn't flexible at all. The PLO contrary to what people claim made huge compromises.

For many Israelis, giving any land is considered generious, but for Palestinians whose land is Palestine, it is all they know, it has been their homeland since they can remember, it is agreeing to give up 78% of the historical mandate
and having only 22%. They feel it's a huge compromise.

I think dialogue is good, but you need concerted action, groups getting media attention, making waves to encourage others to believe that dialogue can make a difference.

Comment by Corey Gil-Shuster on January 30, 2009 at 4:41pm

Just to clarify a few points, although many Jews get annoyed when words like ‘holocaust’ are appropriated or misused, that is not my point. It is not the word, it is the tendency to exaggerate and embellish. I can intellectualize that this is a product of a group who feels powerless, a group screaming for attention, a group who truly is suffering and is in great pain. I can see that intellectually. Emotionally I have two issues: first is that the use of exaggerated language actually detracts from the argument because the listener focuses on the language and not the issue. For example, ‘apartheid Israel’ is thrown around a lot. People around the globe debate if what is happening is apartheid or not. Pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian people will search the web for sources that support their argument (for or against), but the average Palestinians still live in the same horrible situation, the average Israeli barely even hears about this debate and couldn’t care less. The focus should not be on language or words but on actions. Second, my original question is how do Jews/Israelis respond or deal with or create true dialogue from exaggerations?

On Israelis exaggerating the effects of the missiles on Southern Israel, I agree. Intellectually I know that the chances of dying in a car accident in Israel are MUCH higher than being hit by a missile (I can give you the stats). But emotions take over from intellect and the feeling of being powerless is much more frightening. The people of Southern Israel really are living in terror and no amount of intellectualizing or rationalizing will stop that. I know this because I have felt it living there. I can see now living in Canada why it seems irrational compared to what happened in Gaza but when you are constantly under threat, with everything around you reminding you are under threat, it is terrifying. And it becomes easy to justify why the other side is suffering because you become filled with rage and frustration and you want them to suffer.

This leads to the powerful vs. powerless argument. I could see this once I met Palestinians in Canada. I can appreciate what they are talking about- Israel seems larger than life, a world power controlling everything. In Israel though, this is not the perception. Most Israelis feel a constant state of powerlessness, that it is just a matter of time before the Arabs and Muslims join forces to kill us all. It is based on our 2500 year history as a minority (often abused) and only hearing the battle cries from the Arab/Muslim world. Think of it like a pair of binoculars- if you look through them one way, things seem closer and larger than they really are (threats of annihilation), turn them around and things seem further away and smaller than they really are (conciliatory statements). That is how Israelis view the world. We are powerless and few, they are powerful and many. It is just a matter of time … so we need to create a deterrence to survive. None of this is rational. None of this makes sense. In fact it is a self-fulfilling prophecy- the Arabs hate us so we will act in a way that creates this result. Palestinians have a self-fulfilling prophecy too- “we are victims, we are weak”. We are in a dance of two irrational self-fulfilling prophecies where neither group sees the dynamics and how they reinforce each other.

About Jews doing something similar with exaggerated language, inability to compromise. I agree completely. I think this is much more a product of Jews outside of Israel (who are the majority voices on the internet). They feel a need to protect Israel as a symbol. Israelis feel a need to protect their homes, families, lives. Even the most combative are open to ideas for dialogue because they are tired- although it may take them a while to get there. Jews outside Israel get to a point where they feel they cannot give in because they don’t have to live with the results of stubbornness. As a general rule, what people say about Israelis outside of Israel may not be as true as you perceive. That includes the anti-Semitism cries, etc.

I suppose in my explaining my question I am partially answering it. People who live an emotionally dangerous existence feel that they are the only victims, people also create their identity based on this sense of victimhood and people do not like to question their own identity. I guess I am still looking for answers and new ideas in how to engage Arabs. I will give you an example: I used to be like most Jews and Israelis in that I assumed that every Arab wanted to potentially kill me because I am Jewish. If an Arab had approached me and the first statement was “I recognize Israel’s right to exist” this would put me at ease and open my mind to finding compromises. What does that statement have to do with (an irrational) fear of Arabs? We all work in code words which help sum up all that we know and all that we feel. Recognizing Israel’s right to exist to most Jews means recognizing Israel as a Jewish state (whatever that means), not supporting violence, not wanting to throw the Jews in the sea, recognizing that we are just as indigenous as Palestinians, and an ability to see the situation from our perspective even if you don’t agree. All that in a statement which is completely meaningless to most but Jews. But after saying those words, my defences are down and I am able to see a different perspective.

I want to find similar statements which create a similar effect in Arabs. Open them to understanding both perspectives. Part of the problem is that what Palestinians want, directly threatens what Israelis want. For example, Israelis want a safe place to exist. Palestinians want to return to their original homes. To Israelis, there cannot be safety if millions of Palestinians live with them because all they know of Palestinians is violence and threats. To Palestinians there cannot be peace/safety for Israelis until they return (justice argument). So we are caught in a catch 22 at this time until each side can learn how to not threaten the other.

Did I make everything muddier? :-)

Comment by Basil Keilani on January 30, 2009 at 3:36pm

I am not sure what I can really say about your long post. I am not sure. I agree that what happened in Gaza is not a holocaust, and I think it's an exaggeration, but to say war crimes were committed is not an exaggeration. I think many Arabs and Palestinians don't that much about the holocaust, so you should put that in context. I may know about the holocaust, because I am an intellectual, but most people are not. The point is that the Palestinians are suffering intensely, and they are angry, but you, as a Jew, don't like them using the word holocaust. I understand that.
However, I understand their pain and anguish. Could you say that the Israeli public exaggerated what happened with the rockets and underplayed the deaths of 1,200 Palestinians? You could argue this from an intellectual stand point in many ways.

You stated that Europeans do not speak out for Palestinians. The populace does in large measure, but not the leadership. It is not because the Palestinian cause isn't just. It's because of the holocaust that you mentioned earlier. That's one major reason. Yes, you could be correct partially that the Palestinians don't articulate their cause as well as they should, but European governments are afraid to criticize Israel from what my European friends tell me.
They are too afraid to do so because of what happened during World War II, and America heavily supports Israel, and they do not want to butt-heads with America. In Latin America, where there is no connection to the holocaust, and the Leftists are strong, they are more likely to criticize Israel, and in many ways they are Western people. So, your view of the reception of the conflict is too simplified even if you have a point there.

You stated that many Arabs view that Jews are wrong and the Arabs are right, and that's the way to dialogue, but, correct me if I am wrong, but don't so many Semitic Jews speak in the way of their Semitic Arab brethren.
If I am incorrect, I would be happy to get some glasses, but I have seen huge evidence of this, brother.
I, for one, do not state that Jews are wrong, and Palestinians are simply right. Yet, there are plenty of Jews
on here who never admit to anything wrong in Israel's past. You and Neri are not in that camp and to a certain extent I believe Paul Reti is, but so many are not. I don't think it's a dynatmic of Western versus Eastern culture. You are correct that dialogue is hard if you are debating someone who says you must admit you are wrong. I know one Palestine on this site who speaks that way, and I have disagreed with him with his debating style, and I have done this openly. I am sure you have seen that.

As far as dialogue, even me, a peaceful person, is afraid that this conflict may be long lasting, but not because there aren't Palestinians who want dialogue or there aren't Jews who want it, but your very powerful Israeli Government with US backing and which is armed to the teeth is determined to keep East Jerusalem and much of the West Bank's settlements. In a way, Corey, trying for us to speak about dialogue while we feel we are getting knifed by your relatives while trying to dialogue is hard, very hard. I know you may speak about the rockets, and the terrorism, and I won't dispute you on that, because I abhor violence. I am sure you can understand that the situation of the occupied is different than the situation of the occupier. Correct? You are the stronger one. We are the weaker one. We do lash out, you hate it, I hate it. Peace groups have more of a luxury in some ways in Israel, though less so, than Palestinian groups, because we are under seige. If you respectfully disagree with me, that's fine.

Regardless of what Palestinians are going through, they need to try to build bridges to peace. You are correct, but, my friend, the Palestinian people are in despair and see to a large extent darkness, a tunnel, no light except maybe for their grandchildren. However, you could argue that you feel that the Israeli peace camp is in despair and feels like it's under seige in a different way. If you say, I will say I agree.

I am not sure if I helped. I tried, at least:) *smile*