'If we just increase the force a bit more, they'll get the message'
From today's Jerusalem Post:
"Chief Rabbi of Safed Shmuel Eliyahu called on the state of Israel on Wednesday to hang the sons of the terrorist who killed eight yeshiva students at Mercaz Harav.
"A state that really respects the lives of its citizens would have hung the ten sons of the terrorist on a tree 50 amot [25 meters] tall so that others would see it and be afraid," wrote Eliyahu, referring to the Book of Esther's depiction of the way the Jews of ancient Persia took revenge against Haman and his ten sons by hanging them.
Eliyahu's comments will appear this weekend in a Hebrew-language pamphlet called Eretz Yisrael Shelanu [The Land of Israel Belongs to Us] that is distributed in thousands of synagogues across the nation.
"I am not talking about individuals," stipulated Eliyahu. "I am talking about the state of Israel that needs to make them hurt until they scream 'enough'. Until they lay sprawled on the ground groveling 'help us'...We have to extract a revenge that is so painful it will burn into their souls the message of all our enemies that Jewish blood is more valuable than gold and platinum." "
Of course, one could simply dismiss these statements as yet another extremist whose views don't represent most of society, which is true to an extent. However, the view expressed above is just another variation on the overall message heard way to often in both Israeli and Palestinian societies - that "the only language they understand is force" or that if only the violence is increased a bit more, then they'll finally give up.
Of course, not only is that theory bad in terms of leading to an eventual peace and incredibly barbaric, it's also simply completely wrong. The main evidence is that for 100 years, Jews and Muslims in Israel/Palestine have been trying to increase the force - to "tame" the other side - and guess what, neither side has given up yet. And, more importantly, neither will give up in the future. Apparently our God isn't stronger than your God, and though our weapons may be different, and our will to fight on apparently is not. Both sides are willing to risk their lives and kill each other for the sake of what they see as their own version of a justification for their actions, and both clearly feel that they are tougher, while the other side is weak.
What message must really be "burnt into souls"? That no matter how many buses they blow up, or rockets they fire, or yeshiva student they shoot in schools, the Palestinians will never force the Israelis to "give up" and leave. And no matter how many more people are killed in Gaza and the West Bank, no matter how many more arrests are made, homes destroyed, or houses built, Palestinians aren't going to "give up" and leave.
So, can we please just get past that, and realize that both sides are here to stay, no matter how much force is used. So, that being said, why don't we try to get along?
"Chief Rabbi of Safed Shmuel Eliyahu called on the state of Israel on Wednesday to hang the sons of the terrorist who killed eight yeshiva students at Mercaz Harav.
"A state that really respects the lives of its citizens would have hung the ten sons of the terrorist on a tree 50 amot [25 meters] tall so that others would see it and be afraid," wrote Eliyahu, referring to the Book of Esther's depiction of the way the Jews of ancient Persia took revenge against Haman and his ten sons by hanging them.
Eliyahu's comments will appear this weekend in a Hebrew-language pamphlet called Eretz Yisrael Shelanu [The Land of Israel Belongs to Us] that is distributed in thousands of synagogues across the nation.
"I am not talking about individuals," stipulated Eliyahu. "I am talking about the state of Israel that needs to make them hurt until they scream 'enough'. Until they lay sprawled on the ground groveling 'help us'...We have to extract a revenge that is so painful it will burn into their souls the message of all our enemies that Jewish blood is more valuable than gold and platinum." "
Of course, one could simply dismiss these statements as yet another extremist whose views don't represent most of society, which is true to an extent. However, the view expressed above is just another variation on the overall message heard way to often in both Israeli and Palestinian societies - that "the only language they understand is force" or that if only the violence is increased a bit more, then they'll finally give up.
Of course, not only is that theory bad in terms of leading to an eventual peace and incredibly barbaric, it's also simply completely wrong. The main evidence is that for 100 years, Jews and Muslims in Israel/Palestine have been trying to increase the force - to "tame" the other side - and guess what, neither side has given up yet. And, more importantly, neither will give up in the future. Apparently our God isn't stronger than your God, and though our weapons may be different, and our will to fight on apparently is not. Both sides are willing to risk their lives and kill each other for the sake of what they see as their own version of a justification for their actions, and both clearly feel that they are tougher, while the other side is weak.
What message must really be "burnt into souls"? That no matter how many buses they blow up, or rockets they fire, or yeshiva student they shoot in schools, the Palestinians will never force the Israelis to "give up" and leave. And no matter how many more people are killed in Gaza and the West Bank, no matter how many more arrests are made, homes destroyed, or houses built, Palestinians aren't going to "give up" and leave.
So, can we please just get past that, and realize that both sides are here to stay, no matter how much force is used. So, that being said, why don't we try to get along?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Seth Levy on -
"The Palestinians will never force the Israelis to give up and leave"
With the Olmert in power that is certainly a possibility...
Anyways, what you are saying is quite true. The problem is, the PA and Hamas just don't get it. Israel would not be attacking Gaza if Gaza wasn't throwing rockets, but Gaza would be throwing rockets with or without the Israeli attacks. Israel won't be making raids in the West Bank to find terrorist masterminds if there wasn't the daily threat of terrorists crossing the border, yet the Palestinians increase their attacks when there are no raids. So, while Israel could go the 'peace only route (dude)," there is little chance for the PA or Hamas to follow this lead and would therefore be even more detrimental to their own people than fighting back would be. The Israeli government shouldn't be afraid to admit that their own citizens lives (whether they be Arab, Jew, Christian, etc) are much more important than the lives of the enemies. For that is what government is for, to protect its citizens.
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Permalink Reply by Jason Silberman on -
I meant to focus, as usual, less on governmental actions, but rather more on the views of the populations as a whole. Obviously I can't speak about Palestinian society myself, but I know that the view - "the only language they understand is force" - is very prevelant in Israel Jewish society. There is a popular feeling, again, that the Palestinians will finally break if you just push a bit harder. Of course, it's not true.
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Permalink Reply by Seth Levy on
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Palestinian society clearly doesn't understand what you are trying to say: Read this article
Weird, it wont show up as a link, but if you click the words "Read this article" you will be directed to the page
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Permalink Reply by Jason Silberman on
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Yeah I just read thanks.
It obviously is well-known that large numbers of Palestinians either fully take part or at least support attacks against Israelis. And yes, my whole point is this thinking must change, and especially the thought that these attacks are gonna lead to "victory".
But a few things: this poll was taken, even though the article dismisses it, during a time of "increased tensions" - or let's be honest, sheer anger and rage. It's important sometimes, or perhaps all the time, to think outside of oneself, and see the other side. For the average Palestinian, fed by their media and government and mosques, the previous week had seen the IDF kill over 100 people in Gaza, many of them civilians, and it just reinforced the already existing anger from before. A poll taken during that time is obviously going to be different during other times. For example, if I remember correctly, a much higher percentage of Palestinians opposed suicide bombings during the Annapolis conference.
Now Imagine a similar situation in Israeli society, but again, from the perspective of a Palestinian looking in. A poll question is asked, "do you support a major, prolonged, and quite likely high-casulty IDF operation in Gaza Strip? The operation will most probably result in multiple civilian casulties and soldier fatalities." Imagine the same question being asked in a week where 11 kassam rockets fall in the western Negev, causing no injuries or damage, and the same question being asked a day after 2 children outside their school are killed by a rocket. Do you think you would get the same results?
I'm not in any way trying to excuse support for the killing of innocents. I'm just saying, it's important to understand the context a bit.
And again, my inital point still stands - that is, among a significant percentage of Israeli Jewish society (and Jews around the world), they feel that there is a "breaking point" for the Palestinians. And yet when you ask them if there is a point where terrorism against Jews gets so bad, would Jews simply give up the dream of living in Israel as a Jewish State, they would say, "of course not...thousands of Jews could die, and we'd still keep on fighting."
That's my point. That neither side is gonna give up.
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Permalink Reply by Habib on -
well , a palestinian could say : " israelis don't get the message , they are not listening , we will continue fighting until occupation and land spoliation ends "
sending "messages" by bombing is certainly a weird way to dialogue ...
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Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on -
C'mon Habib,
That's a cheap shot unworthy of you.
You know you can't generalize about Israelis that broadly.
If there really is a message that the Israeli government hasn't gotten,
the Palestinian leaders sure haven't mailed it out yet.
According to Mohammed (another poster here), the occupation began in 1948
and the resistance is to all of Israel.
So I'd like to ask:
What percentage of Palestinians agree with him ("All of Israel is occupied Palestine")
or what percent with you ("Occupied Palestine is only the WB and Gaza").
What percent of Palestinian leaders?
Why do those who take the second position above
get branded as collaborators and traitors?
Because the message you say Israel doesn't get
is being sent with very mixed signals, if at all.
That's how I see it.
Yigal
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Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on
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Sorry Habib,
I guess I missed that.
But you see what I mean?
Yigal
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Permalink Reply by Habib on
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yes , but i have read in yediot aharonot that mahmood abbas stated
exactly the superficy of it's state . it's borders , it's capital . it was pretty clear for me
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Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on
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Huh? Sorry, I don't understand.
What do you mean "superficy"?
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Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on
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Thanks.
How about the real important thing:
Is there a Bill of Rights?
What are those rights?
How are they to be guaranteed against the government?
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