'If we just increase the force a bit more, they'll get the message'
From today's Jerusalem Post:
"Chief Rabbi of Safed Shmuel Eliyahu called on the state of Israel on Wednesday to hang the sons of the terrorist who killed eight yeshiva students at Mercaz Harav.
"A state that really respects the lives of its citizens would have hung the ten sons of the terrorist on a tree 50 amot [25 meters] tall so that others would see it and be afraid," wrote Eliyahu, referring to the Book of Esther's depiction of the way the Jews of ancient Persia took revenge against Haman and his ten sons by hanging them.
Eliyahu's comments will appear this weekend in a Hebrew-language pamphlet called Eretz Yisrael Shelanu [The Land of Israel Belongs to Us] that is distributed in thousands of synagogues across the nation.
"I am not talking about individuals," stipulated Eliyahu. "I am talking about the state of Israel that needs to make them hurt until they scream 'enough'. Until they lay sprawled on the ground groveling 'help us'...We have to extract a revenge that is so painful it will burn into their souls the message of all our enemies that Jewish blood is more valuable than gold and platinum." "
Of course, one could simply dismiss these statements as yet another extremist whose views don't represent most of society, which is true to an extent. However, the view expressed above is just another variation on the overall message heard way to often in both Israeli and Palestinian societies - that "the only language they understand is force" or that if only the violence is increased a bit more, then they'll finally give up.
Of course, not only is that theory bad in terms of leading to an eventual peace and incredibly barbaric, it's also simply completely wrong. The main evidence is that for 100 years, Jews and Muslims in Israel/Palestine have been trying to increase the force - to "tame" the other side - and guess what, neither side has given up yet. And, more importantly, neither will give up in the future. Apparently our God isn't stronger than your God, and though our weapons may be different, and our will to fight on apparently is not. Both sides are willing to risk their lives and kill each other for the sake of what they see as their own version of a justification for their actions, and both clearly feel that they are tougher, while the other side is weak.
What message must really be "burnt into souls"? That no matter how many buses they blow up, or rockets they fire, or yeshiva student they shoot in schools, the Palestinians will never force the Israelis to "give up" and leave. And no matter how many more people are killed in Gaza and the West Bank, no matter how many more arrests are made, homes destroyed, or houses built, Palestinians aren't going to "give up" and leave.
So, can we please just get past that, and realize that both sides are here to stay, no matter how much force is used. So, that being said, why don't we try to get along?
"Chief Rabbi of Safed Shmuel Eliyahu called on the state of Israel on Wednesday to hang the sons of the terrorist who killed eight yeshiva students at Mercaz Harav.
"A state that really respects the lives of its citizens would have hung the ten sons of the terrorist on a tree 50 amot [25 meters] tall so that others would see it and be afraid," wrote Eliyahu, referring to the Book of Esther's depiction of the way the Jews of ancient Persia took revenge against Haman and his ten sons by hanging them.
Eliyahu's comments will appear this weekend in a Hebrew-language pamphlet called Eretz Yisrael Shelanu [The Land of Israel Belongs to Us] that is distributed in thousands of synagogues across the nation.
"I am not talking about individuals," stipulated Eliyahu. "I am talking about the state of Israel that needs to make them hurt until they scream 'enough'. Until they lay sprawled on the ground groveling 'help us'...We have to extract a revenge that is so painful it will burn into their souls the message of all our enemies that Jewish blood is more valuable than gold and platinum." "
Of course, one could simply dismiss these statements as yet another extremist whose views don't represent most of society, which is true to an extent. However, the view expressed above is just another variation on the overall message heard way to often in both Israeli and Palestinian societies - that "the only language they understand is force" or that if only the violence is increased a bit more, then they'll finally give up.
Of course, not only is that theory bad in terms of leading to an eventual peace and incredibly barbaric, it's also simply completely wrong. The main evidence is that for 100 years, Jews and Muslims in Israel/Palestine have been trying to increase the force - to "tame" the other side - and guess what, neither side has given up yet. And, more importantly, neither will give up in the future. Apparently our God isn't stronger than your God, and though our weapons may be different, and our will to fight on apparently is not. Both sides are willing to risk their lives and kill each other for the sake of what they see as their own version of a justification for their actions, and both clearly feel that they are tougher, while the other side is weak.
What message must really be "burnt into souls"? That no matter how many buses they blow up, or rockets they fire, or yeshiva student they shoot in schools, the Palestinians will never force the Israelis to "give up" and leave. And no matter how many more people are killed in Gaza and the West Bank, no matter how many more arrests are made, homes destroyed, or houses built, Palestinians aren't going to "give up" and leave.
So, can we please just get past that, and realize that both sides are here to stay, no matter how much force is used. So, that being said, why don't we try to get along?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Habib on -
seth , you said that israel has the upper hand in the middle east ... "great powers means great responsabilities"(spiderman,lol) .
israel , as an occupying state has responsabilities toward the palestinian population and when the palestinians choosed hamas , israel had the duty to talk to the representatives of the palestinian people (since israel agreed on the oslo accords ) .
when menahem begin was elected democratically by the people of israel he became the prime minister of a state , not the leader of a party nor a former terrorist .
the world could deal with him as a terrorist (wanted in the u.k) but they recognized him as the legal representative of the state of israel .
hamas deserves the same treatment . if you want peace you have to talk to your ennemies and one can't choose his ennemies .
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Permalink Reply by Jason Silberman on -
Hi John,
I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't making any personal statement that "my" G-d is better than anyone else, or any other G-d. I was simply pointing out that many people involved in the conflict do feel that way. That there are many Muslims who feel that the Judaism isn't the "true" faith, and vice versa, and that their faith will win out - like the Bob Dylan Song "With God on Our Side". I'm saying, that from an outsider's perspective, it appears that no sort of Higher Being has triumped over any other, up until this point. Both sides show no signs of slowing down, or "giving up".
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Permalink Reply by Mohammed on -
you wrote:"And no matter how many more people are killed in Gaza and the West Bank, no matter how many more arrests are made, homes destroyed, or houses built, Palestinians aren't going to "give up" and leave"
Exactly, so Israel if did anything to us we'll not leave, WHY?
Because it's our home, No other home for us.
"Eretz Yisrael Shelanu" IS NOT BELONG TO YOU, and if you hanged the kids of the man from Jerusalem, then do it and more and more will take our rights, not just one. We are free people, living free or die, but not dying alone, who want to "force us to give up" must be punished.
Israel have nothing more to do for us, that's why they want ceasefire specially in Gaza.
"Israel" tried siege, closures, killing hundreds of civilians, to stop rockets then what happened??
Israel couldn't stop it while your "army" was in Gaza, but more and longer rockets hit Israel, Because you'll never stop us from living.
Life to us as Palestinian and Muslims is not living any life NO. We live free and have our dignity on the surface of the land or living inside earth is better for us.
God is only one God for all humanity, but if you believe in "your God", then go ahead and be brave to the end and continue the battle.
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Permalink Reply by Seth Levy on -
While most of this post is pure rubbish, I would like to point out something.
""Eretz Yisrael Shelanu" IS NOT BELONG TO YOU" [sic]
Unfortunately, your misguided statements are going to fall on deaf ears, as will the rest of your messages if you keep it up. You are claiming all of Israel is illegal and therefore there should be one state, and that would be the state of Palestine. Not going to happen, and you will be very hard pressed to find a significant group of people that aren't Muslim to agree with you. Moreover, yes, your ancestors might have owned some land that is now part of Israel. Jews used to own land in what is now Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and Jordan. Moreover, if you actually look at your own holy book, the Jews owned the land before Islam was imagined. Get your facts straight and maybe people will start listening to you.
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Permalink Reply by John Wilmerding on
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This response by Seth Levy is a classic inappropriate mixing of religion and politics. It reflects an abysmal ignorance of peacemaking.
For an Israeli, it is also important for Seth to realize that this is the sort of attitude, on Seth's part, not only that gets Israelis killed, but also causes Israelis to murder Arabs.
An important distinction: Israel, as a modern nation-state since 1948, was founded by Jews as a "Jewish state". However, since Israel, the modern nation-state, is a pluralistic democracy, you must remember that there are Israeli Muslims, and Israeli Arabs, and Israeli Christians, and Israeli Baha'is, etc., etc. If you equate Israel with only Jews, you are not serving the cause of pluralistic democracy.
And the argument (G-d forbid it be a quarrel) over "who was here first" can go on ad infinitum. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? This is why the peace plan elsewhere on this site is referred to as the 'Chicken and the Egg' plan. The 'Road Map' is dead, folks, because Palestinians understand that it is nothing but a plan to build more roads and communities where only Jews are allowed.
In the USA, we are dealing with our demons too. I am not some high-and-mighty US patriot trying to preach to you. The state where I was born used to have bathrooms and water fountains saying "For Whites Only", and segregation is still practiced through selective steering of real estate transactions, in banking through the awarding of favorable mortgage arrangements, etc. Scandalous ethno-centric behaviors happen all over the world!
But this is a site devoted to peacemaking. Isn't there some sort of higher standard that we ought to be adhering to, or trying to? The occasional expression of anger is understandable, but to defiantly re-state the intransigence of your own side in the conflict -- this goes beyond the pale of proper behavior for peacemakers.
A better response would have been, "I understand that so very many of your people have lost their lands and homes. A future truth and reconciliation process will perhaps yield outcomes that are equitable. I dedicate myself and my efforts to that outcome."
Or even, "Our 'law of return' and your 'right of return' don't appear to be compatible. But perhaps if they are placed on the same table for negotiation someday, workable public policy decisions can be arrived at and carried out."
I have to believe that all sides in this awful conflict can be brought into a realization that peacemaking is not only possible; it is inevitable.
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Permalink Reply by Seth Levy on
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First off, I must point out that I am not an Israeli. I am an American citizen who was born and grew up in Washington D.C.
Second, who are you to put words in my mouth as a better response for me? I do not appreciate you trying to make me say something I do not believe in. I am not saying I completely disagree with you, but I certainly do not wholesomely agree with you. There is no way I would consider uprooting current Israeli homes for a relative of someone who used to own land in the same place, especially knowing that this will never happen in places where Israelis used to live.
Third, I have never said Israel is only for Jews. In fact if you follow my posts I celebrate the fact that there are non-Jewish Israelis. You mention Israel as being a modern nation state because it was recently founded. Well then why is Jordan not considered modern? Is it because of their policies against non-Muslims? If so, you contradict yourself because in another post you said that Arab societies are not and more or less advanced than Western (and Israeli) society.
There is no comparison to the racial issue in America to the issues in the middle east. Race is not an issue. For the most part Arabs and Jews look very similar. There are no Jewish only public facilities inside Israel proper. Non-Jews hold government power. Non-Jews have equal voting rights. Non-Jews are treated equally in the eyes of the law.
As far as peacemaking being inevitable, that may be at some point in time, but I don't see it happening in the foreseeable future.
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Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on -
Hi John,
I do believe you're being too hard on Seth here. His post is not as grandiose as you made out - I really don't see where it mixed religion and politics in any faulty way.
Actually, what he wrote in the last post is true.
Jews used to own land in what is now Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and Jordan.
And Jews did own the land long before the emergence of Islam.
As you wrote, I agree that "there some sort of higher standard that we ought to be adhering to, or trying to."
Are you really adhering to that standard yourself when you say:
"The 'Road Map' is dead, folks, because Palestinians understand that it is nothing but a plan to build more roads and communities where only Jews are allowed." ???
To me, that is a very unfair, and even biased, statement.
The way I see it, the road map is dead alright; but more because the Palestinians have utterly failed to perform their very first obligation thereunder - to control the terrorists in their midst.
Back when he may have had a chance, Abbas refused to even try to rein in Hamas.
Instead, he formed a "unity government" with them! He did not try to stop them from smuggling arms into Gaza. He did not get them to change their genocidal charter.
And as you noticed, the US government played a destabilizing role with no clue what it was doing.
So Hamas got stronger, threw some Fatah guys of roofs (not exactly the pacifist course of action), and took control of Gaza.
More recently, PA policemen in the West Bank have killed Israeli hikers, and shot and killed an Israeli who was just driving home in his car. The official PA reaction to the yeshiva murders was much less than encouraging. The unofficial reaction was downright scary.
Now, to give credit where it is due, there was a commendable incident where an IDF officer somehow got lost and ended up in Ramallah, where the PA police found him and returned him in safety to Israel. And I like much of what Fayyad has to say.
So there are some encouraging signs as well.
But not enough. And that - "what is enough" - is a delicate type of judgment to make,
and one upon which honest people could reasonably be expected to disagree.
But it absolutely must be made.
No Israeli government will be able to afford to permit the same kind of attacks that come from Gaza to also come from the West Bank.
So if the roadmap is dead, it is because the PA has failed, for whatever reason, to come close to fulfilling its first and foremost obligation under that roadmap.
Anyway, the Bush-inspired "roadmap" might not have ever been a decent plan in the first place.
I agree that peacemaking is more than possible, and may be inevitable.
But over what timeframe? How many decades will it realistically take?
Surely reining in avowed terrorists, who glorify and even reify murderers in their midst, is a necessary part of any realistic strategy towards bringing real peaceful coexistence to the region.
Seems like it to me.
Yigal
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Permalink Reply by Mohammed on
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Yigal,
Roadmap is dead because of Israel. When you attack West Bank daily, raids on Gaza, closures, siege and ...etc. Then you killed it
you wrote:"Instead, he formed a "unity government" with them! He did not try to stop them from smuggling arms into Gaza"
Well, first of all this is not of Israel's business. When terrorist like "Shas" or any other extremist join your government, it's not related to us.
Why you hate us to be united? to kill us one by one like your country do now?
Hamas is part of our community, we can't fight them to make you happy.
I'm 100% sure, if Israel stopped, then Hamas and others will stop too. We don't want to keep fighting, but if you want more killing in our side then you'll have to face consequences.
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Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on
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Wrong again, Mohammed.
There is no valid comparison between Shas and Hamas. Nobody associated with Shas has ever committed a homicide bombing or fired rockets at civilians who were not shooting rockets at them. Where do you get that?
And we were talking about the roadmap, which says that the PA MUST
prevent acts of terror. Allowing Hamas and Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Martyrs to accumulate weapons and kill Israelis is not a purely internal Palestinian matter, and directly subverted the roadmap.
Granted, Hamas is part of your community. The reason to fight them is not to make me or Israel happy. It is because they deny human rights in principle, and anyone who really supports human rights must either try to persuade them to also support human rights, or must oppose them.
That is for your own benefit as a community.
Call the fact that it will lead to peaceful coexistence a bonus, if you will.
You say "I'm 100% sure, if Israel stopped, then Hamas and others will stop too."
If Israel stopped what? Existing? Remember, you have said the resistance has been justified for 60 years - which implies that all of Israel is the occupation, and which makes you more like them than like Habib, who at least is willing to accept the non-occupation status of pre-1967 Israel.
I just don't believe that you are correct about Hamas stopping its fight because of anything Israel can do short of national suicide.
I'm sure there is no evidence that that is the case at present.
You say "We don't want to keep fighting, but if you want more killing in our side then you'll have to face consequences."
I don't want ANY killing on your side, or on my side, or on any side.
I truly believe that you don't want the fighting to continue.
But I also believe that Hamas does.
Unfortunately, that's how I see it.
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Permalink Reply by Elaine Friedland on
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Mohammed,
Just one fact, Shas is the political party which represents Mizrahi Jews, the descendants of those Jews who once lived in the Arab countries.
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Permalink Reply by Seth Levy on
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Mohammed doesn't seem to listen to facts, don't waste your pixels. He just likes to repeat himself over and over.
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Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on
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Hi Seth,
I agree with you here, but please don't be so quick to give up on the other posters.
The very fact that they are here really does mean something important.
Eventually, Mohammed may answer some of the questions we've posed to him; and even if he doesn't, it's worth something to have him think about our positions and for us to be exposed to his.
At least our discussions will exist for other people to evaluate and reach their own conclusions.
Part of this peacemaking business is to be as polite and civil as possible,
no matter what, and to take our passion, and our feeling that someone else may be insulting our intelligence, to energize us to patiently and unequivocally explain why.
At least that's how I see us being most effective.
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