Are Humanistic Zionism, Humanistic Judaism, Humanistic Islam, or Humanistic Islamism possible?

Posted by Paul RETI on May 17, 2008 at 12:54pm in General

Whether Humanistic Zionism, Humanistic Judaism, Humanistic Islam or Humanistic Islamism are possible may be worth exploring independently of other topics because some have questioned the related terminology some of us use:

Some examples are :

1) John W. introduced the term Humanistic Zionism.
2) I refer to myself as being genetically and neurotically Jewish

Here is some background information that I trust is not controversial:

For an introduction to Humanism, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism
Humanism is what many may think of as Humanistic Christianity, and simply is the deity-free version of what many refer to as the Judeo-Christian body of concepts and values (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian).

I've added some subtopics for threads. Please add your own if you want a special topic for what you want to discuss.

Tags: christian, christianity, deity, faith, humanism, islam, islamism, jew, judaism, muslim

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on May 17, 2008 at 2:48pm: Is Secular Zionism possible?

Discuss...; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on May 17, 2008 at 2:48pm: Is Humanistic Zionism possible?

Discuss...; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on May 17, 2008 at 3:01pm: Mary wrote above...

Thanks for the link, and indeed Zionism and Humanism are in contrast, if we use the definition you provided:
Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality of the human condition, suggesting that solutions to human social and cultural problems cannot be parochial.

Since Zionism is interested in the affirmation of a Jewish State in Palestine and that this will become the core of Jewish identity, it does propose a solution to its own problem (parochial), but rejects a solution that is based on the human condition itself due to its focus.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on May 17, 2008 at 3:11pm: I disagree Mary.

Humanism is a deity-free version of what many refer to as the Judeo-Christian body of concepts and values.

I see Jews as a people: a kind of tribe or Nation with a common culture, practices, and heritage, and for many even common genes.

In my universe, there are Secular Jews. Such people can be Humanistic Zionists.

In my universe, there are Humanistic Jews who seek to keep and maintain a deity-free version of Judaism. Such people can be Humanistic Zionists.

John W: Is this the kind of thing you meant by Humanistic Zionism?; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on May 17, 2008 at 2:49pm: Can anyone be a Secular Muslim?

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Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on May 17, 2008 at 2:54pm: The term Humanistic is used too much to differentiate between people.

I question if any one who declare that some movement is not Humanistic is actually ignore the full deep wide scope of human culture and he or she assume that there are Humanist people that are better then the non-Humanist people. declare Hamas activity as nu-humane and you get justification to bomb civilians and put responsibility over to the Hamas ... same goes to declare Zionist activity as nu-humane.

We can recognize today that we are all in one Planet with restricted resources, Humanistic behavior is to include all even the ones that not want to be included in our humanistic mission for sustainable resilient emergent human race that structure a global society of justice, love, education, culture to share the Planet of our children.

Any dialog that exclude "not-humanistic" people and not addressing the life condition of that people is a path to aggression.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by mary rizzo on May 17, 2008 at 3:02pm: Neri... you are having a great deal of difficulty in the definition of the term. You are confusing Humane with Humanistic. My intervention was based upon the claim that there was indeed a branch of the ideology of Zionism that was Humanist Zionism.

Knowing what Humanism is, and by the precepts of Zionism, one cannot make a combination of the two. They contradict one another automatically by their very definitions!

This is why you insert all kinds of things that I have not stated here, and you also have determined that I have called for things that I have not called for based on a knee-jerk defensive reaction that you have.

I suggest you read the Wikipedia entry Paul has supplied and then respond if there can indeed be such a thing as Humanist Zionism. If there is, you shall please define it for me? If you can't I see no point in continuing contributing to a discussion where the terminology is not agreed upon.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on May 17, 2008 at 3:39pm: Marry,

There is indeed few branches of the ideology of Zionism that are Humanist Zionism.

I do not know if you are willing to investigate this statement as you need to go deep into the writing of Abraham Isaac Kook (1865–1935) was the first Ashkenazi chief rabbi of the British Mandate for Palestine. Kook was an unusual combination of a mystic with kabbalistic leanings and a religious humanist who believed that there was a place for modern life and science within Judaism, which needed to be open to contemporary ideas and currents. The Humanistic core of this approach is recognition that as Jews are special all nations are special and Jews has internal responsibility for the all.
Paradoxically It was Kook who founded the Merkaz Ha-Rav in 1924 as the first yeshiva in Palestine with a Zionist orientation, for which he was bitterly attacked by an anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodoxy. And it was he who imbued this yeshiva with an outlook that, more than 30 years after his death, was to transmute itself, under the influence of his son, Rabbi Tsvi Yehuda Kook, into Gush Emunim, the organization that spearheaded religious settlement in the occupied territories in the late 1960s and 1970s and from whose ranks much of the settlers' subsequent leadership emerged.

I am today in contact with some groups of student from Merkaz Ha-Rav that are "post Gush Emunim" and working to bring back th humanistic teachings of the Father "Abraham Isaac Kook".

If you open to understand that what you call "Zionist ideology" is in fact only one group within the many Zionist groups. to say that all who identify as Zionist are thinking the the need of the Jewish nation exceed the need of other nations is false.

The other point is that these components of thinking as Zionism, Arab nationalism etc. are evolving processes and as such they may go through phases that are destruction to others, but we need to fucus on developing more complex way of thinking and understand that even the "Post Zionist" (as me) are product of Zionist ideas and attacking all Zionists as evil is something that weaken the process of emerging new post-national way of thinking, a way of thinking that will include the National way of thinking but will emphasis the world-centric-humanistic component that is missing so much in National movements as Palestine and Israel and many other national conflicts in the world.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by mary rizzo on May 17, 2008 at 4:09pm: You can't be serious. I now understand why you are completely at a loss to define Humanism, because to you Kook was humanist.

This is what he had to say, and please, if it is anything other than racist to the bone, tell me. Defend this statement if you can:

(According to Israeli writer Yair Sheleg), Rabbi Kook wrote that “the difference between the Jewish soul and the souls of all non-Jews, no matter what their rank and level of understanding, is bigger and deeper than the difference between the human soul and the animal soul.” (Moses and the Prophets never taught this outrageous invention which is totally incompatible with the Abrahamic traditions).

It is totally incompatible with any sort of decency, equating people who are non-Jews to being on a par to animals. It is no surprise Zionists think they are humanists when statements like these are acceptable to them.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on May 17, 2008 at 4:22pm: Now, now... Even if what you write Mary is correct then such sweeping generalisations about others is just a little !?!?!. No?

Besides, one need NOT be a religious to be a Humanistic Zionist or a humane Zionist.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by mary rizzo on May 17, 2008 at 10:14pm: You can check the quote if you like: it is sure to be on many sites, as it is quite well known. If Kook is the example of Humanist Zionism, it is quite a horrible thing and should promise nothing good for humanity to view others as lesser human beings, and equate them with animals.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on May 18, 2008 at 1:51pm: Mary,

I wrote "Even if what you write Mary is correct then such sweeping generalisations about others is just a little !?!?!. No?"

I think that you have not responded to that.; ▶ Reply to This