Are Humanistic Zionism, Humanistic Judaism, Humanistic Islam, or Humanistic Islamism possible?
Whether Humanistic Zionism, Humanistic Judaism, Humanistic Islam or Humanistic Islamism are possible may be worth exploring independently of other topics because some have questioned the related terminology some of us use:
Some examples are :
1) John W. introduced the term Humanistic Zionism.
2) I refer to myself as being genetically and neurotically Jewish
Here is some background information that I trust is not controversial:
Some examples are :
1) John W. introduced the term Humanistic Zionism.
2) I refer to myself as being genetically and neurotically Jewish
Here is some background information that I trust is not controversial:
- For an introduction to Humanism, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism
- Humanism is what many may think of as Humanistic Christianity, and simply is the deity-free version of what many refer to as the Judeo-Christian body of concepts and values (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian).
Tags: christian, christianity, deity, faith, humanism, islam, islamism, jew, judaism, muslim
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on
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Dear Paul,
I think Mary position is clear and I suggest we should not "convert" her.
I think Mary and many of the people agree "nothing good for humanity to view others as lesser human beings, and equate them with animals. "
Are we arguing who compare who to animals ?
My personal preference is using this discussion to shed light on ideas that Arabs and Israeli can relate and develop into healthy cooperative human action that include us all.
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Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on -
Neri,
I understand and respect where you're coming from and going to.
In plain English:
1) I asked why Mary smeared a whole group of people of the purported sin of one indidual.
2) Her response was to repeat the smear.
And that simply seems to prove much more than you suggest, Neri.
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So do you accept her to stop smear when it is clear that she think she is telling us something we do not see?
We are going to get more and more of the same,
if we can take responsibility ignore the smears and bring references we can let others see our references. in this case a dialog of smears do not serve peace.
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Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on
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Hi Neri
I felt and feel that I must make one more honest and obvious and clear attempt to communicate.
Should that fail, I will try to follow your suggestion.
Be well...
Paul R
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Permalink Reply by Jafra W. on -
sorry to jump that late into discussion.
I think every one belongs to "X" represents it mostly in different way that others joining the community. (X= Zionism, FATAH, HAMAS; Religions, ..)
Any observer "Y" evaluate "X" in different way than other observer according to his/her awareness and experiences.
It is the same as the story with the 6 blind guys and the elephant. Every one feel something else while they catch different part of it.
Accordingly every thing is possible.
In war time, no one is ready to look in his black box and help the enemy to open his black box. It is about the "I"
When people are really ready for peace and co-existence, they have to help each other to do the ugly inconvenient job, which is to open the black boxes.
I see a good chance, as I know Palestinian very good: They have good harts. They forgive very fast and used to approach peace by nature. Only Palestinians can make Zionism obsolete.
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Yes I agree to that,
Some people are fill connected to Zionism since it is for them (Internal view) as the movement that created Israel so they think that without Zionism Israel will not exist. So I usually say the we need to create the next stage of Zionism that will act as service to the world and seek confluent future with Palestine ... some dreem include one secular state structure that will serve us all. This is a post-Zionist idea of what can we bring next to the world.
“People are not willing to admit it, but Israel has reached the wall,” Avrum Burg says.
Avraham Burg, a former Speaker of the Knesset, managed to inflame the Israeli public (left, right, and center) . Short of being Prime Minister, Burg could not be higher in the Zionist establishment. His father was a Cabinet minister for nearly four decades, serving under Prime Ministers from David Ben-Gurion to Shimon Peres. In addition to a decade-long career in the Knesset, including four years as Speaker, Burg had also been leader of the World Zionist Organization and the Jewish Agency for Israel. And yet he did not obey the commands of pedigree. “Defeating Hitler” and an earlier book, “God Is Back,” are, in combination, a despairing look at the Israeli condition. Burg warns that an increasingly large and ardent sector of Israeli society disdains political democracy. He describes the country in its current state as Holocaust-obsessed, militaristic, xenophobic, and, like Germany in the nineteen-thirties, vulnerable to an extremist minority.
source: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/07/30/070730fa_fact_remnick
Leaving the Zionist ghetto interview with Burg.
Burg: "Ahad Ha'am made the charge against Herzl that his whole Zionism had its source in anti-Semitism. He thought of something else, of Israel as a spiritual center - the Ahad Ha'am line has not died, and now its time has come. Our confrontational Zionism vis-a-vis the world is disastrous."
Burg: "I am inclusive. ... I try to contain. Therefore I do not say that I am turning my back on being sabra but that I am turning in a different direction. And that is true. Completely true."
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Permalink Reply by mary rizzo on
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What are you on about with "Mary's smears?".
I asked what was Humanist Zionism. Neri said that the example was Rabbi Kook. Of course, he knows Kook better than I do. I never said I did. Yet, Kook is also known outside of Israel for some of his quotes, one of which I printed.
Does Neri agree to that quote? Is this something a Humanist would say, that the Jewish soul is higher and deeper than a Non-Jewish soul which can be equated to a man being compared to an animal...
It is indeed Neri who has some justification to make, not me. I did not select this person as an example, he did. If he thinks this is positive and indeed humanist, well... it tells me why you not only won't "convince" me... you will never move beyond your own denial because you have convinced yourselves that "evil" is "good", that "racist and exclusionist" is acceptable.
Is it clearer now?
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Dear Mary,
I think that the word smears comes from emotional reaction and frustration we fail to communicate.
My answer to you was more complex the Kook example, it was description how some Jews see themselves as a component of a whole, same as Muslim who see themselves as component of a whole and see Islam true peace tradition. I can see that in Islam I can see that in Judaism I can see it in Zionist who accept a world centric view of Judaism. After all it is agreed that Zionism contain strong Jewish roots.
The fact that some people understand Kook differently is also normal, but I testified to you that there are many who read Kook and see the point that True Religion has to embrace all. You do not have to accept it, but for me it enough to see the Humanistic side of Zionism. I also added some comments about Avrum Burg that showed how people change and how they seek more inclusive view of reality.
I am not trying to convince you any more, I just reflect my knowledge and view on what you say.
BTW, many people say thing about Mr. Atzmon I guess you do not accept anything that is told about him so try to do the same with this Kook, it needs some effort as it needs effort to understand Mr. Atzmon. I am sure you'll learn something about our world.
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Dear Marry,
As you can see here http://www.jrf.org/to and the articles http://jrf.org/tikkun-olam-resources
You can find that there is deep humanistic core in Jewish thinking so you can understand that Zionism when it relate to its Jewish roots it has to relate to humanistic values.
No, this does not solve the Palestinian problem but it show us a path how to transform the situation and bring in the Humanistic view that exist in Jewish-Zionist thought.
As usually you not need to be convinced, by I hope you'll find the time an interest to see more of what I am describing.
An article I like is attached.
Neri
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Dear Marry,
As you can see here http://www.jrf.org/to and the articles http://jrf.org/tikkun-olam-resources
You can find that there is deep humanistic core in Jewish thinking so you can understand that Zionism when it relate to its Jewish roots it has to relate to humanistic values.
No, this does not solve the Palestinian problem but it show us a path how to transform the situation and bring in the Humanistic view that exist in Jewish-Zionist thought.
As usually you not need to be convinced, by I hope you'll find the time an interest to see more of what I am describing.
An article I like is attached.
Neri - Attachments:
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Tikkun Olam-Liebling.pdf, 225 KB
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Only Palestinians can make Zionism obsolete you say.... Well the Israelis are very busy defending it because they believe it is something good. They can't accept that even in its most "humanist" aspects (which they have tried to present) it is based on inequality...
Sam Habeeb of PCAS just left my house. He had lunch here. He is touring Italy, talking about the seige. Yes, when I talk with people like him, I realise Palestinians are the future, they believe in education, in bettering themselves and their people, and they are practical and not living on delusions about how something is supposed to be with castles in the sky, but how real justice according to laws that are valid should be carried out. Yes, the future lies there. All else is a waste of time.
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Permalink Reply by Jafra W. on
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without anit-semitism and threat against Jews were no Zionism.
They had necessity to be criminal, fanatic (fighting for survival can be ugly and has no ethic) .. we, Palestinian have to pay for that.
We still can tell our narrative as facts, without trying interpretation of the emotional motivation of Zionism.
I can say, Zionists has thrown me from my house without any reason.
Or I can say, these evil driven hateful creations has thrown me from my house ..
I think the first way is better. The other does not help any side and on the opposite, it give them more power and lobby, though marketing of ongoing threat.
Zionists who hate Arabs and Palestinian has mostly learned to do that! There state is build upon war and threat. The system of holding power as well ..
I want to weaken that system what will not work by feeding it with thread, its power.
Israeli can be teach to love Palestinian, Arabs as partner of common future.
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