Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on May 18, 2008 at 5:39pm

Jafra,

You make a lot of sense. The provocation and the incitement must end YESTERDAY!

How? That's a little harder. :-)

Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on May 18, 2008 at 5:56pm

Mary,

I guess you as me is against the Gaza siege, and I agree with you that the Israelis need to change, but do you think the Gazan need to continue their Hamas plan of destruction of Israel ?

Because if this plan is humanistic ... The Israelis should continue with the Seige as many Israelis will die from the liberating forces of Palestine.

So what change the Gazan need to do so I can put more effort to change the political climate of Israel without risking my life and my son life?

Permalink Reply by Elaine Friedland on May 20, 2008 at 1:20am

Mary,

Your reference to internet as a source of documentary is not acceptable because the internet allows anyone to publish any nonsense or even worse falsehood on the internet. I did a google search and the result is that sources which provide your socalled quote, neither provide the source of specific article by Yair Sheleg nor the primary source written or spoken by Rabbi Kook. So what you are repeating is a defamatory rumor. It is easy to defame the dead, because that person cannot sue you in court.

You must provide primary source documentary for your statements, otherwise you are just engaging in political propaganda for your particular movement, which follows the ideology that any group which is the enemy of Israel is your friend.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on May 17, 2008 at 5:16pm

Dear Mary,

I am serious and I studied this topic probably more then you.

The idea is different then the one you describe.

it usually expressed in a metaphor of a body an it see all nations as components of a body of all human, where different parts of the body has different rules. so we can see that Hands and Legs are different but the Body cannot function without them.

Humanity is whole of us, and jews are just a part from the whole.

The next step is when you ask a Jew what is his rule, and in that the rule of the Jews is to serve all nations and be a light to all. So from this perspective the coming of Israel is for the sake of the whole and solving the problems the Zionist created for the Palestinian is an important goal and lesson for the Jews.

As we see different people can understand wisdom differantly, as we see that both of us, educated and passionate understand the terms Humanism/Zionism differently.

My views are different (as I do not consider myself jewish), I see Judaism and any other religious as un-territorial body of knowladge who seeks to serve humanity in the hard path to be better, I can recognize the uniqueness of the Jewish tradition as Muslem, Cristian Bodhaist or any other great religious tradition.

But the Humanistic nature of this Jewish-center-Zionist approach is evident.

Zionism is wider scope of interpretation and has components that are racists but this does not make all the Zionist project a racist one.

You will not agree with me, I know I write it to the other readers.

Peace.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by mary rizzo on May 17, 2008 at 10:18pm

Just explain how Kook is an example of Humanism to you. You selected the individual, not me.

Going on about Holistic philosophy, all being parts of a big project, etc., is off topic. It is not about diversity to make the complete component function, at least, not in what I have read about Kook and in the legacy that the Gush Eminum people follow.

I have many friends in Hebron who tell me what they must undergo being the Untermensch to the followers of Kook. This is the polar opposite of Humanism, it is Hardcore Zionism, and hardcore racism.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on May 18, 2008 at 10:07am

Dear Mary,

It is clear that you do not accept any positive view on Zionism and you do not recognize that not all Zionist of today are ignorant and blind about the Palestinian condition.

When you say "Going on about Holistic philosophy, all being parts of a big project, etc., is off topic" you are missing the point that Zionist, as Hamas as any other ideology/movement cannot avoid the Human bond. and the fact that you do not see it does not mean that we are all blind that we are all part of human race huge organism on this planet. Any National movement, have to face the world-centric humanistic view.

The Hebron Condition is not Hardcore Zionism, it is hardcore racism and a big shame for Israel.

The bottom line you convinced me that you have no understanding in Zionism, you have fixed idea that some Zionist claims represent all Zionist. Holding this view you are disabling any conversation and change.

Zionist movement will not disappear as the Palestinian people did not disappear. Our task is to evolve this set to idea to more flexible and moderate view but your flat view of Zionism make your position hard to work with and co-create new understanding.

You repeat say: you do not convince me ... and I do not try to convince you I try to show you that there are other way to understand ideas and social change.

For the Kook thing, you need to understand the Jewish way of study and get involved with experience people and not people who has agenda as Peleg (anti-religious). I know that many of the Merkaz Harav people do not get this translation of Kook wisdom as world centric but you have strong tradition within Judaisms that support this interpretation that there is no way that something like God will choose one group and neglect all the others.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Hiba on May 18, 2008 at 11:25am

I enjoyed reading your responses Neri, I had an idea that all Jews=Zionists and all the Jews living in Israel are Zionists, now what I can understand is that the idea of Zionism is an ideology that doesn't necessary represent the majority but has the power to exist and take action, "such as Hamas in Palestine".

I am wondering Neri is the idea of Zionism as a movement is mentioned in torah? Was it existed since the time of Moses "Moshe"? or it has appeared as a political, social need for the Jews to establish their own state in the contemporary time?

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on May 18, 2008 at 12:28pm

The idea of Zionism cannot exist in the Torah as Zionism is a modern "national" movement and ideas of the 19th century.

You can find here discussion of Dr. Moshe Berent about the relationship of religion and Zionist movement

Classical Zionism and the Separation Between Nationality and Religion.

Permalink Reply by mary rizzo on May 19, 2008 at 8:57am

It is very funny that you conflate "Zionism" with "Hamas" or indeed with the entire "Palestinian people". Why do you fail to recognise that it is simply and only an ideology and it is not a political party or indeed an entire people?

Your analogies do not work because of this flaw in reasoning.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on May 19, 2008 at 9:47am

Mary:

Not knowing is NOT funny. There is no shame in not knowing or asking. Quite the contrary! Besides Mary, I am really not convinced that your reasoning is sound.

Hiba:

There are many ideological forms and manifestations of modern political Zionism which is a form of Nationalism.

There are many ideological forms and manifestations of modern political Islamism which is also a form of Nationalism. Hamas is simply one of the many manifestations of Islamism.

Here again is my defintion of Zionism which INCLUDES but is not limited to modern Zionism:

Zionism is the national self-determination movement of the Jewish People. This aspiration has always been inherent in the regular daily lives of Jews.

The idea of Zion has been central in Jewish history, thought and culture for well over 3000 years. During all that time, Jews have self-identified and have been consistently identified by others as a People of unique and common heritage. Jews had and have an ongoing presence in and are linked indissolubly to the Holy Land which for Jews was and is Eretz Yisrael, the traditional Land of Israel with Jerusalem as its capital.

I do not have similar and brief definition of Islamism.

Permalink Reply by Neri Bar-On on May 19, 2008 at 9:50am

Dear Mary,

You are right, I emphasized it in many places here but less in our discussion, any social group has internal structure, as Zionism has a spectrum of think flews from the "Promised Land" to "Serve Humanity" and this layers are fighting internally for domination same goes to the Hamas think flews. Some of the Issues we have today is to show that Hamas has more human face then claimed by Israeli extremists. (and this is were your position act as a barrier).

Palestinias, Jews, Zionists, Al-Qaeda are all humans can you see that? so with different historic narrative have the same social dynamics and forces. Their is well researched social psychology work done by Mozafer Sharif check Intergroup Conflict and Cooperation: The Robbers Cave Experiment

The botom line of this study is that in any human group when their is a inter-group external conflict their is intra-group conflict inside. The fight inside is between the extremists that work very hard to fight the moderate with extreme vision and violence and declaring extreme narratives. I some sense the ideas that you present here are working not only agaist Israel existance, you are also atacking the moderate Palestinians.

Please check yourself - did you contacted anyone and asked him why is he talking with Zionists?

Do you think that Palestinians need to use force in order to gain freedom ?

Do you believe that no peace can be present if Israel exist?

You do not need to answer me as I do not try to convince you, I think that this self reflection can help anyone to check is he/she peace activists or has stronger agenda that structure his/her view.

and please study Mozafer Sharif social-psychology work, he is a wise man who considered one of the inventors of the field of knowledge.
Peace.

Permalink Reply by Hiba on May 19, 2008 at 11:23am

Dear Mary,

I wasn't trying to make conflates neither I was trying to establish any analogies here, simply I am trying to know and learn more. To understand the other part that you are seeking peace with you have to know as much as you can about him, recognizing the way he thinks, the things he desires, and the way he works. This knowledge would help both parties to reach a point where they can talk and view clearly, which in turn would help both to move to open horizons.

what I know about Zionism is a summarized idea, I know that this ideology threatens my existence as a Palestinian, exactly as Israelis knows that the ideology of Hamas threatens the existence of them. I also know how this ideology and its people are against any Palestinian fact or individual, and many other ideas similar to that. so trying to understand the views of both might allow us to reach somewhere where we can make peace.

In a way or another the imperative idea of the hate and fighting Zionism and Zionists, and that we are in a continuous war with those people is keep to be presented for Palestinians, but maybe there would be another option to make these people see that what is written in history books doesn't necessary have to be established on the ground, and as there's a fact that Israelis are already on the ground there's another fact that Palestinians are also on this land and neither of them would suddenly disappear, so the option of learn how to live together would be the best solution. Having Israeli acceptance for Palestine and vice versa is so much possible to have on the ground rather than what is in history books since thousands of years ago.

Eventually we are all still humans no matter the different values and believes we hold in our minds and our hearts, it is the responsibility for those who know and understand to help those who doesn’t to be able to open their minds and their hearts as well, whether Palestinian, Israeli, Zionist, Muslim, Hamas,……etc.

• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• 5
• 6