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Permalink Reply by John Wilmerding on July 8, 2008 at 11:57am

Yigal and Paul,

Please do think whatever you choose about me or my beliefs. It is more important that we try to get along than our understanding everything about one another.

I have the same concerns over the USA and Israel ...I think both countries are destroying themselves making a world of enemies with their policies. Internally there is social and political murder -- 'political death' -- happening all the time. These are not healthy societies. They are spinoffs of conqueror cultures, of white supremacy generally.

Paul, you use deductive logic to try to figure out what I mean, and to criticize it as well. How about using inductive reasoning to guess at my intentions? I will give you a hint -- I wish both to save Israel and to prevent any second holocaust against the Jews, prevent catastrophes of any nature happening to anybody.

Put bluntly, I believe history will judge Israel poorly if Jews fail to distinguish between political Zionism and humanistic Zionism. They are two discernably different things, although there are crossover areas as you point out. My own (immigrant) people in the USA have this same political blind spot -- cannot see the evils of their own society, attendant largely to nationalism.

I believe a movement toward humanistic Zionism, isolating, marginalizing, and making irrelevant political Zionism, may well save Zionism itself, plus countless Jews. It is the evils of political Zionism I am concerned with here, much as I am with the evils of my own country. I am the opposite of a good ol' boy, Joe Sixpack, USA patriot -- the very opposite of that.

I fully expect that eventually Jews will discover they love being Jews, being part of the Jewish people (worldwide), and celebrating all of what Judaism has been in history much, much more than merely the history of the Israeli "Jewish state". History will judge theocracies poorly. History will judge ethnically-exclusivist societies poorly. History eventually carries humanity away from settler-immigrant societies that usurp and take the land of others. That is my belief.

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Permalink Reply by Yigal D. Kahana on July 8, 2008 at 8:01pm

John,
It seems that the real difference between us is one of definitions.
What you see as:
"..a movement toward humanistic Zionism, isolating, marginalizing, and making irrelevant political Zionism..."
I see as the realization of true Zionism.
And it will have to have its own form of political expression.
Simultaneously "political" and "humanistic" Zionism.
My belief...that's what they've been trying to do all along.

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Permalink Reply by Elaine Friedland on July 9, 2008 at 1:51am

John,

I think it would help clarify matters if you would specify Jewish political theorists, Jewish political thinkers who you believe have advocated and/or are advocating your position.

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Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on July 9, 2008 at 10:55am

Hi John,

We are all free to think what we think. To communicate, we must really understand what the other is saying. What Yigal wrote above makes sense to me. I think that I understand that and I also gree with that.

My definition of Zionism is this: "Zionism is the national self-determination aspiration of the Jewish People."

It seems to me that your definition and your use of the Zionism concept is very different from mine. By that I don't mean good or bad. I just mean different. I am just trying to understand what you really mean when you talk about Zionism.

It seems to me that you are simply talking about the religious faith Judaism, which I define as the traditional religious faith of the Jewish People.

Please understand that for now I am only really just trying to understand what you mean by what you wrote above about Zionism.

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Permalink Reply by Paul RETI on July 9, 2008 at 11:34am

Hi John,

Here is my understanding of what you seem to think of as Zionism:

Zionism is the national self-determination aspiration of the Jewish People to live in Zion according to traditional Jewish Law..

The underlined clause I added to my definition, in my view, is simply one version of political zionism.

Is my interpretion of what you write reasonable? If not why not and what is your defintion/understanding of the the concept Zionism?

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Permalink Reply by Richard Landes on July 6, 2008 at 11:10am

this writer has confused jews with sovereign jews. zionism is the aspiration to be sovereign and self-determining. he lives in a nation where jews are free citizens, but cannot make sovereign decisions. until everyone in the world has given up sovereignty -- to whom? -- it is nothing short of sadism or folly to argue that jews should not have a place in the world where they can take care of themselves.

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Permalink Reply by Max S on June 20, 2008 at 7:52pm

I really don't know that much about Zionism and I have yet to be convinced of the need to know so I am perhaps not the most suited to participate in this discussion. One thing that I notice from what you have written Paul is the absence of religion. Is there any particular reason for this?

As for your question 'are all anti-Zionists bigots Jew-haters?' I think it would vary from one person to the next. For some of them if Zionsim didn't exist they would find something else to hate and I think all fanatics are like this. When it comes to the most militant anti-Zionist, some of whom I have met, the actual subject of their hatred often seems of little concernand and their views are a mass of slogans which in truth mean very little. This description would fit any extremist in my view but if I was the subject of that hatred I imagine I would see the matter differently.

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Permalink Reply by MKE on June 20, 2008 at 8:47pm

I'm amazed you would think the actual arguments in favor of Zionism are irrelevant.

Why no religion? Modern Zionism was conceived by assimilated and secular Jews. It remained an almost entirely secular movement until at least the '67 war. At that point, religion began to color the secular movement, but it still wasn't the thrust. (See the photo. Although the paratroopers themselves have said otherwise, Jews all over the world reacted to an apparent sense of awe as they came upon the Western Wall.) To this day, it remains a secular movement and ideology that's merely informed by sympathy to peoples' religious beliefs.

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Permalink Reply by Max S on June 20, 2008 at 9:00pm

MKE you clearly didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say anything was irrelevant. As for your little lecture I suggest you find someone else to patronise.

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Permalink Reply by MKE on June 20, 2008 at 9:01pm

Touchy. I read "I have yet to be convinced of the need to know" as suggesting it was irrelevant.

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Permalink Reply by Max S on June 20, 2008 at 9:23pm

No, not especially touchy. I just felt you didn't respond to the main point of my message. Don't take my message as a personal attack on you.

I personally find most anti-Zionists so extreme, irrespective of whether they are actually anti-Semitic, that what Zionism actually is isn't the point. My personal experience (sometimes a violent experience) of such people is that they know about as much of this national movement as I do - very little. It is a national movement and I am happy for my knowledge to stay at that. My point was why do I have to know more? I don't see Zionism in essence as any different from any other nationalism. Maybe you have a different point of view. I am happy to hear it.

On the point of religion, isn't there a movement described as 'Religious Zionism'? Correct me if I am wrong.

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Permalink Reply by MKE on June 20, 2008 at 9:33pm

Sorry, I did misunderstand you. If I have it now, you don't think an understanding of Zionism is especially important for an understanding of anti-Zionism?

But, to answer your question. Yes, there is such a thing as religious Zionism. It's not an especially large or politically significant movement, though it is responsible for some of the worst Israeli behavior (like this). In Hebron, it matters, but not much elsewhere, I don't think.

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